This is a remarkably broad, convoluted, and idiosyncratic field and theres a LOT I dont know. *. Comments may be moderated. Even though Dyno numbers are just a number, For reference my 2018 Gen3 made 400rwhp/390rwtq stock with 5k miles on a Dynojet,, It hit the speed limiter at 6700. Keep reading to find out these common torque converter problems and how to fix them. For example, in park, it will say Desired Slip 1200, Actual: 730 (guess the engine rpm) As speed increases, the Desired Slip drops (don't remember exact numbers) as well as the actual. If you are experiencing shuddering, also check your engine mounts. Just thought I would share with everyone some recent learnings I've had with my 2010 EB Flex. This means that at a 2:1 torque multiplication ratio, an engine that is making 300 lb-ft of torque at a stall speed of 2,500 rpm will actually apply 600 lb-ft of torque to the input shaft of the transmission as the car leaves the starting line. As long as this mechanical lockup remains fully engaged, there is no slip, which improves fuel economy (typically by around 4% at cruising speeds) and provides throttle response and engine braking comparable to a vehicle with a manual gearbox. Stall speed is measured in the car by applying the brakes and revving the engine in First gear against the brakes. JavaScript is disabled. In the event we receive any compensation and/or other valuable consideration for any other content presented on this website, the nature of that compensation or consideration will be disclosed as part of the applicable content and/or otherwise adjacent to it. Reaction torque locked the rear sun gear against the rear one-way clutch, driving the planet carrier and output shaft forward at 69.7% (1 / 1.44) of turbine speed. The result will be every car will have efficient, smooth, and comfortable rides. Your IP: 3. and 5. Locking the converter with a scan tool bypasses the tune and verifies everything mechanical is in order. With Torque Pro torque slip shows it at 0-6 rpm at 60 mph and when coming to a stop it jumps to 25-40 rpm then raises to 1400+. Once your torque converter starts failing, you need to be knowledgeable about what torque converter problems will disable your car? What to Do to Fix Your Contaminated Transmission Fluid. You can email the site owner to let them know you were blocked. if I'm seeing "desired TC slip" of 1020rpm at all times wouldnt that pretty much guarantee the TC would never lock? When the two problems are combined, it could mean your torque converter is failing. We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. by SirHandyMan Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:24 pm, Post 51.91.16.67 Stator The stator is called the middleman. He wondered if something internal may be damaged and the tow tune showed it up not allowing the torque converter to unlock soon enough which caused the bog down issue. My SunCoast converter has a little slip. For more information about how Akamai may collect, process, and/or use personal data, visit the Akamai "Privacy and Policies" page and Privacy Trust Center. (Until late 1954, the transmissions planetary gearset always remain in direct drive unless the driver manually selected Low.) The issues of slippage and heat are the main reasons that street converters should be approached with a serious amount of compromise when it comes to stall speed. With the torque slip PID on the DashDAQ. 91.234.33.200 With a plate clutch, that effect is often quite pronounced, especially in a reduction gear, because of the mechanical connection between the engine flywheel and the transmission input shaft; neither can overrun the other. At stall speed, the impeller is spinning at engine rpm and the turbine is stopped. The multiplication factor is based on the speed difference between the turbine and impeller. Your Transmission Fluid is Contaminated. Really bad shuddering under acceleration, etc. You can email the site owner to let them know you were blocked. register to join our community As you can see I was experiencing multiple issues, all of which were exacerbating the clutch slippage and/or shuddering issue. I switched from a junk converter slipping that much to a tight well built version and picked up .3 and 4mph behind a healthy smallblock (10.2's at 127mph) One thing Ive always wondered about was if any manufacturers looked into Wilson pre-selector gearboxes as a basis of an automatic. As youll see if you look at the first one, the original iteration had three speeds forward and one reverse, for which it requires four epicyclic gearsets. This website is using a security service to protect itself from online attacks. When you submit a comment, you may have the option save your information for future comments, storing the info in these cookies. Required fields are marked *. The PYPF cookie normally expires in approximately four weeks, the 01A1 cookie in approximately one year. (PayPal.com, PayPal, and all logos related to the PayPal services are either trademarks or registered trademarks of PayPal, Inc. or its licensors. It was followed in fairly short order by the 1950 Studebaker Automatic Drive, which took a somewhat different approach to the same problem. The speed difference between impeller and turbine is simply lost to heat within the operating fluid. I was monitoring some Torque converter params for my 4R55E with my in dash scantool. Manage Preferences - Well done and thank you; this must have been an enormous amount of work. :whs: I was seeing 200-300 on the 310 with the stock converter but still felt really strong! New to the site and found it because of this read. That could be within the margin of error for the sensor. If the fluid becomes contaminated, anything that uses and relies on the fluid can be damaged. Your car's automatic transmission has a torque converter. This is how the first fluid couplings were designed, but they were hideously inefficient because of high slippage. This is why lifting off the throttle in a car with a fluid coupling or torque converter can feel almost like shifting into neutral. Some vehicles have a transmission temperature indicator that will let you know when your car's transmission is overheating. The TC is a viscous coupling. Your ring and pinion (gear size) Your circumference or roll out of the rear tires. Obviously some sort of mechanism would have been required to determine what gear to select and when to actually shift, but starting with a Wilson box at least some of the problems would have been solved. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. When the torque converter starts malfunctioning, you may feel shuddering and even slipping in overdrive. As the new owner of a 92 Alante with the viscous clutch I wondered what the difference was. The Vimeo Cookie Policy does not currently disclose the normal durations of the cookies and similar technologies the Vimeo platform uses, but it appears that some may remain in your browser (or other user agent) for as long as your settings permit. and our So, you can see how those would be preferred from a standpoint of cost and packaging! If the solenoid is not regulating the fluid flow properly, it could cause variability in the torque converter clutch performance as well. There are several actions that could trigger this block including submitting a certain word or phrase, a SQL command or malformed data. there were around 6 defaults that popped up. The space ahead of the clutch formed a hydraulic cylinder containing an annular steel piston that acted as a pressure plate. This slowly turns the blades of the driven fan in the same direction. I always thought it wasn't supposed to go over 10. check out the. Overdrive ratios drive the torque converter at speeds generally below normal coupling speed, creating increased slippage and heat, which is unacceptable. by SirHandyMan Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:52 pm, Post Some persist for only a few minutes, or until you close your browser (or other user agent); others may remain in your browser (or other user agent) as long as your individual settings permit. The cookieconsent_status cookie recorded whether or not you consented to analytics tracking and told the website to hide the notification banner; this cookie normally expires after about one year. One or more wp-saving-post cookies may be set while creating and/or editing posts or pages, to help manage version control and the autosave feature; these cookies normally expire after about 24 hours. The stator is called the middleman because it serves as the conduit that reverses transmission fluid and sends it back to a turbine impeller. 6 speed/8 speed RWD/FWD Transmission Tuning (incl T43, T76, T87) T43 Torque Converter Desired Slip. When starting, the fluid clutchs driving torus (the impeller) may reach a speed of 2,000 rpm or more before the driven torus (the turbine) begins to move at all, a point known as stall. The drive fan moves air across the blades of the driven fan (which is turned off). In third gear, the Studebaker Automatic Drive/Borg-Warner DGs lockup clutch drives the transmissions output shaft at engine speed, providing a completely mechanical direct drive with no hydraulic slippage. 2011 Flex Limited AWD EcoBoost - Mediterranean Blue Metallic/Silver Roof. It's not more specific because stall speed is highly dependent upon engine torque. But the most common torque converter problems are listed below. Thanks for this. In the early Studebaker Automatic Drive (Borg-Warner DG) transmission, the flywheel drives the torque converter impeller, front pump, and lockup clutch pressure plate (red). The valve was pushed open or closed by opposing pressures generated by a throttle-controlled valve and a centrifugal governor driven by the output shaft. I checked for codes and had none that explained why it happened. Torque converter clutch slip Scan tool values 99 GMC Pickup GM's 6L80 HP Tuning, DoD, and Torque Converters! I have read and accepted the Privacy Policy Come join the discussion about diesel performance, modifications, EGR deletes, troubleshooting, lift kits, tires, wheels, maintenance, and more! The turbine and lockup clutch driven plate are both splined to the transmission input shaft (medium blue). The TCC solenoid regulates the fluid pressure to the clutch. The wp-donottrack_feed cookie, which controls a blog feed, was set by accessing the dashboard menu for the WP DoNotTrack plugin (which we do not currently use on this website); this cookie normally expires in about one year. I have yet to read this monumental work in depth. check trans fluid. This creates the greatest speed difference between the turbine and the impeller and therefore the maximum torque multiplication. There is more demand in today's market for increased comfort and safety in cars. A torque converter clutch (TCC) is an important element of automatic transmissions because it affects fuel economy and driveability. ), These cookies were previously used by the Google Analytics service to collect information about visitors and their use of the Ate Up With Motor website. Theglobal torque converter marketcontinues to grow and expand at a CAGR of 4.54%, which is projected until 2021. If the engine is not running smoothly and/or delivering consistent power, it can cause fluctuation in the "Desired" versus "Actual" torque converter clutch slippage along with a surging feeling. Borg-Warner continued to sell the DG series for several more years to some non-U.S. customers, but U.S. automakers would not rediscover the lockup clutch for another 20 years. By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. 2. Your Transmission Gear Ratio at Finish Line. Unless you have tune that keeps the converter unlocked, the converter should've locked. A converter that might have a stall speed of 5,000 rpm for a pure drag car would be completely miserable on the street. I changed the transmission fluid (Mercon LV) at 63k miles back in 2017. Its free and only takes a minute, Powered by phpBB Forum Software phpBB Limited. These cookies are necessary for the site's administrative users (who wouldn't even be able to log in without them), but if you are not an administrative user, these cookies aren't normally placed on your device at all unless you somehow access the login area, which is off-limits to non-administrators. works great no real problems. In drive at 0 speed TCD should read 1020 rpm and TCA should be Engine RPM - The replacement was a cheaper and somewhat simpler Borg-Warner unit which Studebaker-Packard called Flightomatic that deleted the DGs lockup clutch. But now with the Spartan 275 I am seeing 18.24 at WOT with the converter locked. That should make you and your car happy. Ive been troubleshooting a low RPM with light acceleration shudder on my 2011 EcoBoost Flex. The Vimeo Cookie Policy also provides information about how Vimeo users can control the use of third-party analytics and/or advertising cookies in connection with embedded Vimeo video players. In order to get a realistic value, use: Your finish line MPH (from ET slip) Your finish line RPM. Ate Up With Motor, its logo, and other associated icons and graphics are trademarks and/or service marks of Aaron Severson dba Ate Up With Motor. When you have contaminated transmission fluid that has bits of this and that in it This is an indication that you have bigger problems inside the converter or transmission. I believe it is labeled as TQSLIP(rpm) under Ford Specific PID's. A healthy plate clutch slips only briefly when engaged or disengaged. Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information. With no slip at all. Remember, a torque converter is a coupler between the engine and transmission. If we have enabled multi-factor authentication (which requires an authentication code as well as a password to log into the administrative dashboard), the iThemes Security plugin may also set the itsec_interstitial_browser cookie during the login process. The turbine has a spline that attaches to the transmission input shaft, which connects to the internal parts of the transmission to shift gears and provide power to the wheels. If the payment button is visible, it may set the third-party cookies PYPF (via paypalobjects.com, which is owned by PayPal, Inc.), which appears to check whether or not you are a logged-in PayPal user, possibly to facilitate the PayPal user login process, and/or 01A1 (via abmr.net, which is owned by Akamai Technologies), which stores certain technical information about your device and browser (or other user agent), possibly to facilitate the login and shopping cart functions. I cant imagine the hours of work which you must have put into understanding these various transmissions, to say nothing of writing up a description that a simpleton like me could (mostly) understand. (WordPress and the WordPress logos are registered trademarks of the WordPress Foundation in the United States and other countries. The vehicle suffered a torque converter failure at around 140k miles. These torque converters allow some slippage but it should not vary much from the desired PCM value. In fact, Cadillacs chief engineer ordered an early Daimler Double Six with the Wilson and Laurence Pomeroys Fluid Flywheel for evaluation purposes. by SirHandyMan Fri Mar 29, 2019 6:54 pm, Post A tracking pixel, sometimes known as a web beacon, is a tiny image file that loads from a remote server; it's a type of embedded content (as is the button itself, which loads from the same domain). This is due in part to the technological advances in torque converters. That's because torque converters transfer the power your car engine makes to the transmission in your car. Theshuddering makes the car lagand is very noticeable. Wallace Racing BACK to Auto Math. When the vehicle is at rest, the fluid clutch slips enough to allow the engine to idle with the transmission in gear without stalling. The action you just performed triggered the security solution. The torque converter, with its multiple elements, is being manufactured with an eye towards the future. I no longer monitor the forum, please either post your question or create a, I am just trying to see how the management of this company can justify ignoring, or walking away from the T43 stuff right now, I am aware of the size of the Dodge Diesel market.I for one do not care about Dodge Cummins products, I have turned so many of my customers onto EFI Live from HPT or SCT that it kills me to have to tune a TCM with one software and ECM with another. Last fall, the external filter disintegrated and clogged up the cooler. California residents also have the Right to Opt-Out of the sale of their personal information see the Do Not Sell My Personal Information page. When you experience fluid leaks, you aren't retaining the amount of transmission fluid; the torque converter needs to transfer the power from the engine to the transmission. Cookie Notice Actual shows 640 rpm in drive with the brake on. One of the fundamental differences between a fluid clutch (a fluid coupling or torque converter) and a mechanical plate clutch is slippage. Lockup clutches were used in some nonautomotive torque converters before World War II, but the first regular-production automotive application was the 1949 Packard Ultramatic Drive, which established a model for subsequent transmission designs. Okay, so it sounds like you were able to identify a potential root cause. The slipping occurs while you're driving or changing gears, and it usually comes with some odd noises too. Crazy Egg is a trademark of Crazy Egg, Inc. Optimizely is a registered trademark of Optimizely, Inc. in the United States, EU, and elsewhere. Ate Up With Motor's Terms of Use and Privacy Policy may be revised from time to time. Performance & security by Cloudflare. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. sir im having an issue with my 93 f150 aod. This sounds really great, and it is. (author diagram). (author diagram). The turbine drives the front annulus through the input shaft (medium blue). Comments may be moderated. To learn more about the specific cookies used and/or to fine-tune your available choices, click "Privacy Preferences" at the right. Submitting a comment signifies your acceptance of our Comment Policy please read it first! This is a very slick trick and can be worth up to 2.5 times engine torque! Torque converter seals can get damaged for several reasons. AAMCO Centers are independently owned and operated. It does drove different than a lock up. If you are experiencing shuddering, also check your engine mounts. I havent studied the Wilson preselectors in any great detail, but if youre curious, the applicable U.S. patents are US1404675 and US1796904. 7.3L Power Stroke - Aftermarket & Performance. On early Ultramatic-equipped Packards, the lockup clutch would not engage until road speed reached at least 15 mph (24 km/h) even on a light throttle. You are using an out of date browser. When it comes to automatic-equipped street machines and drag-race cars, the torque converter is a welded-up magic box that few enthusiasts know much about. Submitting a comment signifies your acceptance of our. Although this arrangement sacrificed some of the smoothness that was the main rationale for early automotive torque converter transmissions, it made Ultramatic more efficient than the early Dynaflow, at least at cruising speeds. There are a number of posts referencing this issue, look for the wires coming out from under the intake manifold behind the elbow that contains the coolant thermostat. Unlike a reduction gear, this speed reduction doesnt multiply engine torque. For more information, please see our When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. At idle and very low road speeds, slippage is desirable because it keeps the engine from stalling or lugging in gear. One of the fundamental differences between a fluid clutch (a fluid coupling or torque converter) and a mechanical plate clutch is slippage. Please register or login to enable Dark Mode. We arent saying 10RPM of slip is bad, what we are saying is that seems to be the progression point of going out. Have you ever gotten in your car, started it up, put it in gear only to feel it shudder? If the engine isnt free to turn faster than the driveshaft at rest or extremely low speeds, the engine will stall! If you shop at Amazon.com (for anything), use this link to support FordFlex.net! The torque converter is made up of five parts: 1. The DG series transmissions obtained their indirect ratios with a compound planetary gearset. The wahFontColor and wahBgColor cookies, which are set if you alter the site's color scheme, normally expire after about 14 days, but you can remove them immediately by clicking the "Restore Defaults" button on the sidebar. Google, Google Analytics, and other related marks and logos are trademarks of Google LLC.). The only problem - there's a boat-load of information and I only know how to interpret a fraction of it. Almost no one thinks of it, but when you drive your automatic transmission car, you're master over your cars torque converter. Petrol / Gas. Tuning. Torque converters can be serviced or replaced as a single unit. Twice last week, when I came up to a stop light, the engine bogged down to 400rpm then recovered back to normal idle. Contact Us - These early units operated on the same principal of using one electric fan to drive another. I was running the KEM 250 and 310 tunes. Packard achieved that goal by treating the engagement of the lockup clutch like an automatic gear change. When I replaced my transmission and converter, I replaced two mounts and the two dog bones under the engine. Most street torque converters tend to operate in the 3 to 5 percent slippage range, but this can go as high as 8 percent. The problems come in many sizes, shapes, and forms. If your going over ten your gonna need a new torque converter fairly soon..depends how you drive.. my converter started off slipping at about 13 on the 275 and ended up wearing out pretty quick and it began slipping like 45-50 on the gauge. The original Packard Ultramatic had a four-element torque converter with a single stator (light blue) interposed between the first- and second-stage turbines, providing a stall ratio of 2.4:1 at 1,600 rpm. To learn more about what information the Vimeo platform collects and how that information may be used, see the Vimeo Privacy Policy. When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. If governor pressure dropped below that threshold, the clutch would disengage. This slippage is part of what determines the stall speed of the converter. Unsurprisingly, each engagement or disengagement of the lockup clutch felt like a shift, giving less technically knowledgeable drivers the mistaken impression that Ultramatic was a two-speed automatic. It stayed there(18.24) from 60mph to 90 when I let off of it. They normally expire after about one year. Once the vehicle is moving at a constant speed, the speed difference between the impeller and turbine diminishes, eventually reaching a minimum point known as coupling stage. The second thing to look for is a lot of slippage between Desired and Actual readings for the TCC in Forscan. Only lasts from .5 seconds to 2 seconds. Accessing the login page sets the wordpress_test_cookie, a session cookie that tests whether the user's browser (or other user agent) will allow the cookies needed to log in to the administrative dashboard; this cookie normally expires when the user closes their browser (or other user agent). Well Aaron . A Simpson gearset (which Ill be discussing in great detail in the next few days) provides the same number of ratios from only two gearsets, and a single Ravigneaux gearset can give you four forward speeds and reverse if you have enough clutches. Because of the lack of traction and limited tires, it's not critical that a street engine launch at peak-torque rpm. Transmission Range) start a datalog or have an assistant drive and watch Torque Converter Slip Actual (TCA) and Torque Converter Slip Desired (TCD). Utimately, I installed a recycled transmission from a junk yard and a remanufactured torque converter from Ford. I am however, now chasing some unusual engine noises which are a different issue entirely. However, that did not cure the shuddering problem. Heat is the enemy of any automatic transmission and will radically reduce its life span if not mediated by an efficient trans cooler. The torque converter is made up of five parts: The stator is called the middleman. Your car shudders almost as if it's caught the flu and has a temperature. (Both turbines, here colored medium blue, were bolted together into a single unit, but had different blade profiles.) Cloudflare Ray ID: 7c0ed4b2fd769016 For all the administrative and login cookies described here, "xx" will be a cryptographic hash while "UID" will be the administrative user's user ID number in this website's WordPress database. If you use the buttons to make a payment or donation, the PayPal services will set additional cookies (not listed here) to manage your PayPal login and transaction data (and potentially also for various other purposes, e.g., user analytics and/or advertising). The cookies normally expire in about 10 days, and are not set at all if you do not access any password-protected content. i take it your a writer and not a trans guy ,but maybe someone could answer the question. (author diagram). The transmission fluid is an important part of the torque converter in that it is used to provide the fluid coupling and smooth starts and without stalling the engine when the vehicle is stopped in gear. When coasting, the turbine overruns the impeller, which causes slippage, but relatively little braking effect. Second, the nonlinear relationship between impeller and turbine speed can be troublesome. So far the bogging down hasn't happened since last week. Since the transmission was largely dependent on the torque converter for torque multiplication, it was crucial that the lockup clutch not engage prematurely and that there be some means to immediately disengage it for acceleration. You usually notice your car shuddering because itfeels like it's vibrating. The effective dates of the current versions are: Paid advertisements and/or sponsored links on Ate Up With Motor will be identified with words such as "Sponsor," "Sponsors," "Sponsored Link(s)," "Sponsored Content," "Ad," "Advertisement," "Advertisement(s)," or "Paid Promotion" (and/or by images or icons containing such words). In Drive, the direct clutch is engaged and both bands are released, causing the input sun gear, the low sun gear (orange), the planet carrier and output shaft (light green) to turn at input shaft speed. . I was towing my 5th wheel and the temp went up to 285. abs, do you have any recommendations on how to troubleshoot a failing torque converter using ForScan? Such cookies and/or stored data items may be set by various domains (such as, though not necessarily limited to, youtube.com; youtube-nocookie.com; googlevideo.com; ytimg.com; google.com; accounts.google.com; www.googleadservices.com; and/or doubleclick.net, which is part of the DoubleClick advertising service, also owned by Google LLC). Torque converter slip question I was monitoring some Torque converter params for my 4R55E with my in dash scantool. by SirHandyMan Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:27 pm, Post This is a red flag that lets you know you may need an expert to repair it for you. Its weird its not noticable as even a new soft engaging lock up but it acts somewhat like it has one. Desired is what the PCM is commanding and Actual is how much it is actually slipping measured in RPM. It ran pretty good. (For each of these cookies, "xx" will be a cryptographic hash.) The image file itself contains no personally identifiable information, but the loading of that file may be used to help identify and/or track you. i called a trans shop and he had no answer,but it sounded strage to him. All site content Copyright 2007-var year=new Date(); year=year.getYear(); if (year<1900) year+=1900; document.write(year); FordFlex.net FordFlex.net is in no way affiliated with Ford Motor Company. If it does go let us know. Archive - Currently the vehicle is much better to drive. Therefore, a lockup clutch needs to be accompanied by some mechanism to selectively engage or disengage the clutch. I think you should check the fluid level first and foremost. Please include what you were doing when this page came up and the Cloudflare Ray ID found at the bottom of this page. Many times, people think there is something wrong with their transmission when the problem lies with their torque converter. ), These third-party cookies may be set in connection with embedded video players for content hosted on the Vimeo video platform, for purposes such as (without limitation) managing video settings, storing video preferences, providing certain functionality (e.g., allowing you to pause a video at a particular point), associating your video viewing and other activity with your Vimeo account (if you have one), showing you advertising, ensuring proper functioning of the service, preventing abuse, and/or compiling user analytics data. For additional technical information about the cookies used by the analytics service, see their "Google Analytics Cookie Usage on Websites" page; for your reference when reviewing that page, we did not use Google Analytics 4.

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